LAURA JAYES, HOST: Tim Ayres from Canberra. Tim, great to see you. First of all, this has been something that Anthony Albanese has been criticised for over the last couple of days. Being slow to react to the Melbourne firebombing. Yesterday was different. Do you think that criticism has been fair?

SENATOR TIM AYRES: No. I think that criticism from Peter Dutton and others is highly politically charged. It misrepresents wilfully and deliberately the position that the government has taken consistently all the way through. Right from that outrage, that terrible massacre perpetrated by Hamas on October 7 last year, all the way through this conflict.

This government has clearly stood for the Australian national interest and Australian values here and in the position that we've adopted overseas. Our opponents have sought to make this a hyper-partisan issue with hyperbolic rhetoric day in, day out. By all means, have strong views, and Australians are entitled to have strong views, about this conflict in the Middle East, about the history of the conflict in the Middle East, all of those sorts of issues. Absolutely. But we have said as a government, do not bring the conflict here. Social cohesion for Australia is a critical strength that we must maintain. And we have not been able to secure agreement from the Greens political party and the Liberals and Nationals, who have sort of picked sides and prosecuted the argument, using pretty florid language a lot of the time. And we have seen social discord as part of that impact on social cohesion. And we have also seen antisemitism emerging and that is an absolute curse for Australia. And this government unequivocally stands for stamping it out

HOST: The comparisons have been made, though, to Chris Minns, and I don't think you can all lay it all at Peter Dutton's feet. The Jewish community itself, not one homogenous group, but there have been some very loud voices who've been quite critical of Anthony Albanese, comparing his actions to that of Chris Minns in NSW. Now, Anthony Albanese hasn't gone as far as Chris Minns, hasn't been as emphatic. Is that a warranted comparison?

AYRES: Oh, no, no. I can't imagine how clearer the Prime Minister, senior Ministers, everybody in the government could be on the question of antisemitism. Chris Minns is doing it. Chris Minns is doing the job here that you would expect to see the Premier of NSW.

HOST: If I could just say, this is not coming from me per se, this is not coming from Peter Dutton. This is coming from the Jewish community. And on the UN votes, for example, you've seen this draw the ire of Benjamin Netanyahu's office as well.

AYRES: I mean, but let's separate these things out a bit. I think it's a good thing that there's strong voices in the Australian Jewish community who are making the argument, no problems. That is a welcome contribution to the democratic debate here. It's wrong, though, for political leaders to try and wander around looking for an argument, desperately trying to point the finger of blame. There is no relationship between Australia at the United Nations exercising votes in the Australian national interest. I appreciate there's disagreement and there should be. There should be disagreement across the community about all these questions, but we are unequivocally for a two-state solution. Unequivocally for the solution, or should there be disagreement? Well, it's natural in a democracy, Laura, for there to be disagreement. I just say that's fine. For political leaders, though, to be ramping up the language all the time, that does have consequences. There is no relationship, though, between votes at the United Nations and the decision of what appears from news reports of two antisemitic young people to drive a car into the eastern suburbs, set it on fire and spray paint. You know what would be terrifying for local community members? This event. And to draw that connection just smacks of desperate partisanship. What is the job of us, here in Canberra, but to focus on the national interest and to say what is in Australia's interest here? What is in Australia's interest here is social cohesion. Can't we separate these things from the partisan conflict? Peter Dutton is unable to separate his interest and the partisan interest from the national interest. He makes a lot of noise.

HOST: It's convenient to lay it at the feet of just Peter Dutton because that is your political opponent. But it's not just him saying it. It is Jewish leaders.

Ayres: But I welcome that contribution. And we listen carefully to Jewish leaders who, as you say, have different views about all these subjects. That's what we want to see in a democracy. I just say political leaders, the test is a bit different. And what Peter Dutton does is he makes a lot of noise. It's angry, he's reckless. As to the impact on social cohesion and the national interest, he doesn't care. In fact, damaging social cohesion is in his political interest, so he gets about doing that.

HOST: Why do you say that? What's the example of damaging social cohesion?

AYRES: Well, just trying to equate. Trying to equate Australia's position as a responsible middle power in relation to a two-state solution. Trying to equate that somehow with antisemitic violence is reprehensible. And it's just characteristic of this bloke who makes a lot of noise. He's always angry.

HOST: But it was Netanyahu who was always—

AYRES: Reckless as to the impact that it has.

HOST: Yeah, it was Netanyahu's, it was Peter Dutton.

AYRES: Yesterday it was Jane Hume. Yesterday it was Jane Hume. Like this claim I understand. And in what is in all of these things, I'm just saying political leaders in Australia have a responsibility. This bloke is incapable of discharging his responsibility. He's always angry, always reckless. As I was going to say, you know, my mother used to say, empty vessels make the most noise. And this bloke is an empty vessel. He is all about conflict, all about looking for an argument, all about making lots of noise, never about the hard work in the national interest. And that's why, that's why, you know, we're still waiting six months down the track. If I can just move to another question, if that's all right, you know, breathlessly, you know, waiting here in Canberra for this bloke six months after this sort of, you know, bloviating announcement about nuclear power that nobody, no serious independent expert reckons is the right solution for Australia. We know even the most conservative, best-case analysis, $600 billion taxpayer money, which this bloke is still to produce costings. Yeah, like he's just, we don't have it. He's noise on international relations, he's noise on energy questions, he's full tilt noise on whatever it comes. But he's got no solutions, no costed policies on any question. We're on the eve of Christmas and he expects Australians to sit there and go, oh, costings. Thanks very much, Peter. Like six months, Laura. Six months.

HOST: Sure. We're going into an election year. And if that is the case, Tim, why are the polls so tight? Why is it looking like it will be a minority government

AYRES: Well, polls in Australia are always tight, in my experience. Polls in Australia are always tight.

HOST: But you've got to admit that Anthony Albanese has lost some skin. The Labor Party has lost some skin. So, if, you know, Peter Dutton is so divisive, why are more Australians, apparently, according to a few polls, looking more towards the Liberal Party?

AYRES: Well, that's what elections are for, Laura. I don't pay much attention to polls. I pay attention to elections.

HOST: Fair enough

AYRES: And the work that we have to do in between elections and next year, in the first half of the year, Australians will have a choice between a government led by Anthony Albanese that has done the hard work during what have been hard times for many Australians, as cost of living issues have impacted. But we have helped, we have supported families, we have delivered. Inflation is less than half of what it was when we came to office. We have delivered two surplus budgets in a row. We've actually done it. The other guys just talked about it. We've actually done the hard work, saved billions and billions and billions of dollars in interest payments because we have lower debt and we have a responsible plan, including moving towards universal childcare. These guys just present an enormous risk for all of that achievement to take the country backwards to, you know, the Morrison period where these guys were sort of second string and senior Ministers. So, next year will be a sharp choice.

HOST: Yep.

AYRES: This year is all about continuing to deliver. Continuing to deliver. And that's what we're going to continue focusing on.

HOST: Ok. We are well out of time. Tim Ayres, thanks so much. We'll see you soon.

AYRES: Always good to talk to you, Laura. See you.

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