RICHARD GLOVER, HOST: The Monday Political Forum. Tim Ayres is Labor Senator for NSW and the Assistant Minister for Trade, Manufacturing and a Future Made in Australia. He joins us from Canberra. Hi, Tim.
SENATOR TIM AYRES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR A FUTURE MADE IN AUSTRALIA AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR TRADE: G'day, how are you?
GLOVER: Yeah, good. Also with us, Dai Le, Independent Member for Fowler, which covers, I don't know, suburbs like Liverpool, Warwick Farm, Chipping Norton, Cabramatta and Bonnyrigg. Dai, welcome. Thanks for coming on.
DAI LE, MEMBER FOR FOWLER: Thanks, Richard.
GLOVER: And also with us, Dave Sharma is Liberal Senator for NSW. Dave, good afternoon.
SENATOR DAVE SHARMA: Hi, Richard. Thanks for having me.
GLOVER: Now, according to a poll in today's Nine newspapers, 51% of voters say the government has the greatest role in battling inflation, compared to only 27% who hold the Reserve Bank to be responsible. The Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, has spoken about the Reserve Bank smashing the economy, but is his message not getting through to voters? That's the way it sounds. Tim Ayres, what do you think?
SENATOR AYRES: I think this is what commentators are going to talk about, an assessment of polling results and all these kinds of questions. The real thing that matters is what the government is doing here. When we took office, inflation had a six in front of it and now has a three in front of it. So, significant progress has been made and the government's cost of living measures are not only there to support families. Tax cuts for every single household, cheaper medicines, cheaper childcare, cost of living reforms in terms of energy costs, all of these things make a difference, but they're also putting downward pressure on inflation itself, and that's what's coming through with the figures. Jim Chalmer's job here is to manage the policy settings for government here, but also to communicate clearly with Australians, and that's what he's doing. We've had two back-to-back budget surpluses, the first in a generation. The previous government had zero budget surpluses and we ended that government with a trillion dollars in debt and nothing to show for it. Our political management is focused on the public interest and the national interest. There is more work to do on inflation and we're going to keep on with it.
GLOVER: Tim, inflation, in a way, is a measure of the heat in the economy. Inflation goes up when there's too much money, too much demand in the economy. The Treasurer is spending a lot of money on all these things that you mentioned. They're all good things, I agree. But is he just adding to the heat in the economy? Because, of course, if he does, then it's not curing the problem, it's causing the problem.
SENATOR AYRES: That’s as close as Peter Dutton and Angus Taylor have got to advancing a single policy is to claim that they would have cut spending. And the Liberals and Nationals have opposed each of these policy measures that have helped families and put inflation down. The truth is, if their policy prescription had been applied, we would be in recession today with all of the terrible economic costs that that has, and inflation would be higher. That's the consequence of their policy prescription, that's what comes through the numbers and what the ABS has produced here. It is clear that that the government's policy measures have put downward pressure on inflation and supported families. The kind of cuts that have been talked about here by Peter Dutton and Mr Taylor would have smashed the economy even further and put the Australian economy in a recession. That has a terrible outcome for young school leavers in particular, but across the economy more broadly in terms of investment and jobs.
GLOVER: Yeah. Dave Sharma, the whole, the West has got an inflation problem at the moment. Australia's situations are not that different, different from our cousins overseas in places like America. Is it fair for the public to blame our government when the whole world's going through this?
SENATOR SHARMA: I think the international comparison is a valid one. And if you look at what's happening in inflation around the world, other countries are getting on top of it. In the Eurozone it's 2.2%, the US 2.9%, Canada 2.5%, the UK 2.2%. And in each of those jurisdictions the central bank is cutting interest rates or in the United States poised to do so. Whereas in Australia we've had the Reserve Bank say quite clearly that inflation is too high. Inflation here has a thread in front of it. Core inflation is higher, 3.9%. And the Reserve Bank has basically said that they're not going to be in a position to cut interest rates until well into next year and that excessive government spending at the federal and state levels is contributing to this, making their task of getting on top of inflation.
GLOVER: Around the world, though a lot of the excess government spending, and there was a good reason for it at the time, but a lot of the excess government spending was during COVID when you were in power.
SENATOR SHARMA: And we don't resolve from that at the time. I mean, the economy faced an incredibly uncertain time. You know, we had these scenes that we hadn't really seen since the depression of huge queues outside Centrelink offices when the pandemic just started. So, yes, we quite happily say we did what we needed to do at the time to rescue the economy from a recession. But times are different now, and governments around the world have been winding back public spending to get on top of inflation. But the Albanese government doesn't seem to have got that memo.
GLOVER: But you really want to say in that case, well, we're going to cut that childcare subsidy. We're going to cut that electricity subsidy; we're going to get rid of that. Do you really want to say that? Because that's going to cause people a lot of pain.
SENATOR SHARMA: Yeah, I think what we've seen, though, is a huge amount of discretionary spending from this government for things like, you know, the amorphous Future Made in Australia. A large number of extra federal public servants hired. I mean, we just saw jobs figures that showed that of 200,000 odd jobs created in the first six months of this year, fully half of them were public servants. Now, in normal economic times, one in seven of those jobs is public sector and six in seven is private sector. It shows you that government spending here is frankly too high at the moment.
GLOVER: Ok, I'm going to go back to Tim Ayres in a second because I can hear the steam coming out of his ears at the criticism.
SENATOR SHARMA: He's just across from me.
GLOVER: I’ll just come to Dai Le first, Tim, I'll come back to you in a second because Tim is actually the Assistant Minister for the Future Made in Australia, the thing that Dave was talking about. But, Dai Le, you're very close to your constituents there, and I know inflation and cost of living is hitting pretty hard where you are. So, what's your take on this? Is it the fault of the Reserve? Is [it] the fault of the government? Is there too much government spending? What do you think?
LE: I'll speak from the grassroots level. People are ordinary people and families and businesses, small businesses in electorates like mine in Fowler are really feeling the pain. So, the other day, walking down the street, this, you know, woman running up to me has kind of said, “oh, my God, you know, interest rates have risen. Like, can you please tell the government to stop raising, raising interest rates, because I cannot continue to pay. Like, it's just getting so, you know, I mean, I'm struggling, I'm struggling. Can you please help me?” Another small business came to see me, I think it was yesterday. He said, “look, you know, the increase in wages. I had to close my small business. I just can't manage it. Increase in wages for staff, increases in electricity prices, increases in supply.” He's a hairdresser. All of that meant that it's so much harder for him to run a small business today than it was, say, even, you know, four or five years ago, he said he had to stop. So, and that's for me listening to that kind of story. So, for me, how, for instance, electricity prices, while I acknowledge, I mean, this is, you know, it's kind of really walking that fine line. You're trying to provide immediate relief, but how do you do that without causing inflation? Now, electricity prices, the whole thing is a complete mess at the moment. So, what is Chris Bowen going to do so that we can see lower electricity prices? Because we're not going to see lowering of electricity prices. So, that's an issue, for instance, is adding, you know, adding inflation and government, you know, in terms of increasing this sets fees and charges. Why, you know, they're fuelling that by doing those kinds of things. So, you know, we can have the worst war of the words between, you know, who's to blame. But let's look at what are some actions that can really ease inflation and the cost of living for people in areas like mine.
GLOVER: Ok, but in terms of that first woman who said interest rates are too high, the interest rates are high because they're trying to pull down inflation. You know, it's easy to complain about the high interest rates, but inflation is, as the RBA Governor keeps on saying, inflation is a terrible thing.
LE: Yeah, well, look, this is what they come to say to me. They're saying the government has to do something. I mean, you know, not just, not only do they have to face the rising interest rates, they have to face the rising cost of electricity prices, they have to face the rising costs of groceries, they have to face the rising costs of insurance, of transport, of everything. What, where, what instruments and what tools can the government use, for instance, in ensuring that we don't see further electricity price increases? How do we lower it? How do we lower electricity prices? And that's the responsibility of the Energy and Climate Change Minister Chris Bowen.
GLOVER: The pain is real. In other words, Dai Le is the Independent Federal Member for Fowler. Tim Ayres, Labor Senator for NSW, David Sharma, NSW Liberal Senator. And, Tim, just let me give you a chance to respond today. There were two things he said. One that your beloved Future Made in Australia was a way of spending a lot of government money without necessarily getting very far, and the other point was that you kept on hiring more civil servants.
SENATOR AYRES: Well, can I respond to all of those as quickly as I can. Firstly, Dave knows, and anybody who studied the figures knows in terms of the jobs figures. First of all, nearly a million new jobs in the economy. It's a record for any government in their first term. That is a good thing. Secondly, they refer to public sector workers, but also to workers more broadly in the care economy, childcare workers, aged care workers, nurses, teachers. That is a good outcome. As the caring economy grows faster than other sections of the economy, that reflects our economy changing.
GLOVER: But you also have hired more public servants in Canberra, haven't you?
SENATOR AYRES: Yes, but it's not an honest claim to say that all of those people are public servants. There are more jobs there. So, for example, in Veterans' Affairs, the new government has hired more workers to clear the backlog of claims for veterans. We have hired more workers to sort out visa and passport waiting lists, which were stretching out over months instead of days and weeks. There are some things there that the government has done to contribute to growing, to dealing decently with public services and lifting productivity in the broader economy. But most of those jobs are jobs at the state and territory level that are in the caring economy, in private and community employment. And without those jobs, we would be in recession, is the central point.
GLOVER: And just quickly, a Future Made in Australia.
SENATOR AYRES: Dave knows, and the Opposition knows, that this is a set of production tax credit arrangements that are about shaping the future economy. They will only become eligible for payment when manufacturing occurs in Australia. So, we are dealing with the here and now. But this is the biggest pro-manufacturing package. It is future production tax credits. It has no inflationary effect on the economy today. It is all about changing the productive nature and shape of the economy. As I say, it's the biggest pro-manufacturing package in Australian history. It will deliver good jobs to our outer suburbs and to our industrial regions and that is a good thing for Australia's national security and economic resilience. It's a good thing to make sure that we win the global race for future jobs.
GLOVER: Dave Sharma, isn't it true that the supply chain problems of COVID made us all aware around the world, not just Australia, that we needed to manufacture more stuff on our own shores?
SENATOR SHARMA: I don't think that's entirely true, Richard. I think what it taught us is that we need to have a diversity and reliability of supply. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you need to onshore everything. It means you need to make sure there aren't single points of failure in your system. And if you take that argument too far, you're basically saying that we need to be making everything in Australia. We have prospered as a nation from being a free trading nation, open to imports, exporting successfully ourselves with the size we are, you know, 25 million people and our distance from markets, inevitably we will always need to be a trading nation to look after any number of our, essentials. And I think the trick is just to make sure that we're resilient where we need to be, that we have stockpiles where we need to, and that we have alternative sources of supply where we need to.
GLOVER: Tim Ayres is with us, Dai Le and Dave Sharma, who we've just been listening to, the Monday Political forum. The final report of the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide will be handed to the government today after a three-year inquiry. The Commission Chair, Nick Kaldas, is still worried that, as with the scores of inquiries that have preceded it, people will continue to turn a blind eye to making real change. Here he is with me on Drive.
NICK KALDAS, CHAIR OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION INTO DEFENCE AND VETERAN SUICIDE: Obviously, the question that's on everyone's mind is what happens next? And certainly, on our mind. There have been 57 inquiries that we've identified that have preceded us with nearly 800 recommendations. I think it's 770. Will this be just another inquiry? Will it just be filed? Or will the government of today and the parliament of today insist that the steps that we recommend looked at seriously and implemented? And obviously the most important one, the main recommendation we'll make will be the establishment of a body to monitor these issues, delve into these problems, identify trends, and then report publicly and recommend solutions.
GLOVER: The Commissioner, Nick Kaldas, with me on Drive. Dai Le, do you think this time will be different or will this report be left, you know, gathering dust, as so many others have been left to gather dust?
LE: I have a high regard for Nick Kaldas. We were on the Multicultural NSW Board together and I agree with him in terms of the number of inquiries that we've had. I feel quite disenchanted. I think that being in the parliament and seeing how it works, I think we do have so many of these reports. I don't know if we actually will be taking actions, actions not just for the veterans, but actions in other areas to actually do something. We seem to produce so many reports, so many committees, and we actually do not deliver results. And that is the problem for any government, I think you get in and you just have committees, inquiries, one after another. And look, you know, you just heard what Mr Kaldas just said, 57 of these preceding this, this inquiry, and things have not changed.
GLOVER: Dave Sharma. There have been a lot of inquiries, and you can understand why Nick Kaldas thinks, I hope this will be different. Will it be?
SENATOR SHARMA: Look, I think both sides of politics or the major political parties in Australia want to ensure that it is different. And this is why, you know, the Coalition government announced a Royal Commission with the then Labor Opposition support. Nick Kaldas is a very respected person who's looked into these issues deeply. I think we'll all be studying his recommendations and I think he's highlighted the magnitude of the problem. I mean, we see rates of suicide somewhere between 50% and 100% higher current and former members of the ADF compared to the population at large. That is. That is unacceptable, especially for people who we ask to serve and make sacrifices on behalf of their country for.
GLOVER: That has been that terrible thing with just access to the Department of Veterans Affairs. The queue. The queue. I mean, this was established so well during the Royal Commission, the queue to just have your claim heard went on in some cases for months, in some cases for years.
SENATOR SHARMA: Yeah, I think, look, it was, there have been undoubtedly unacceptable instances of veterans seeking support from Veterans' Affairs and from other parts of the government and not having those requests for support met in a timely way. And undoubtedly, that needs to change.
GLOVER: Tim Ayres, will it be different this time, do you think?
SENATOR AYRES: Yes, it will be different. The government received the Commission's Interim Report in August of 2022, and all of the recommendations have been acted on. I want to thank Nick Kaldas and his team for their work and all of the veterans and veterans’ families, but also the experts who have put enormous time and effort telling their own stories to this really important Royal Commission. Of course, there's a set of very big recommendations in there that the government will have to take some time to respond to and to work through. But I think we have demonstrated in terms of this government that having received the interim recommendations; we've acted on every single one of those. You only have to sit in this parliament and meet with the families of veterans to appreciate just how important this set of issues are. It is something that is deeply felt across the government. Matt Keogh, as the Veterans' Affairs Minister, is making a really strong contribution here, and I would not talk this down. This is a big opportunity for the government and the parliament to respond in a systematic way. You spoke about the delays. I've sat in estimates proceedings year after year seen what the impact has been on ordinary families of delays. Not just delays for some people, but delays for everybody that are just unacceptable. We have acted to remove all of the labour hire from Veterans' Affairs and get onto permanent skilled jobs, answering veterans’ questions and queries and dealing with applications as quickly as possible. There is much more work to do, and this government is absolutely committed to doing it.
GLOVER: Let's hope. Monday Political Forum, Tim Ayres, Dai Le and Dave this week. Now let me finish with something a little bit philosophical, I suppose. The new Governor-General, Sam Mostyn, has talked about discarding some of the pomp and ceremony that comes with the job, saying Australians are wary of anything that defines class or status above anyone else. I guess it's an assertion that egalitarianism is still part of Australian life. Do you think that's right? Dave Sharma?
SENATOR SHARMA: Well, I think in terms of how we relate to each other as individuals, yes, egalitarianism is very much part of Australian life. But I would also point out that Sam Mostyn holds the highest office in the land as Governor-General, and people, and I think rightly so, expect that office to behave with a certain level of decorum, dignity, prestige and whatnot. And I think it's important to distinguish here between the office and the individual. Whilst we might all consider each other to be one another's equals as Australians, I think inevitably we have a high respect for some offices because of the position they hold and the valued role they play in our society. And I think, you know, I would like to make sure that that element of the regal office is preserved.
GLOVER: Putting her to one side and the office to one side. Are we egalitarian? Because I think you can argue both ways. We all sound the same. We don't have accents to delineate class as they do in Britain. Then again, we've got, you know, deeply unequal wealth in this country. How do you put those two things together? Are we egalitarian as we sort of think we are?
SENATOR SHARMA: Well, I think. Sorry, was that directed at me?
GLOVER: Yeah.
SENATOR SHARMA: We've always been a country that believes in equality of opportunity, not necessarily equality of outcome, and of the view that people, regardless of their station or role or age or anything else in life, are deserving of the same respect that should be afforded to any individual. And I think that's what makes us egalitarian as a nation, not the fact that we all have, you know, draw the same income or have the same number of children or have the same household composition. It's how we relate to each other as individuals and the opportunities that people have in society to improve themselves, better their lives, and better the lives of their children. I think that's what to me means, egalitarianism in Australia.
GLOVER: Dai Le. Do you think we're an egalitarian people?
LE: I think we aspire to be an egalitarian society. There's a difference between having this, you know, aspiration to be an egalitarian society to those that within have got disadvantages doesn't mean that, you know, we try to be. But going back to that question about, you know, discarding the pomp and ceremony, I think. I think that we need to really, for me anyway, I think going to what Dave Sharma just said it's about the highest office and therefore there are certain cultural and traditional practices that I'm sure that Australians, no matter what backgrounds they're from or no matter if they're poor or rich, really respect and hold and respect that tradition. I don't know what things she's proposing to change, but the office of the Governor-General is the highest office in the country, so we need to remember that.
GLOVER: I'm sure it's not going to be a keg out the back. I'm sure they'll do things a bit better than that. Tim, do you think we're as egalitarian as we think we are, I suppose is my question.
SENATOR AYRES: Well, I think the answer is yes and no. There's certainly a strong egalitarian ethos across the Australian community, but we have to battle for fairer outcomes. We have to focus on the role that government can play, working across the community to deliver better outcomes for our outer suburban communities and our regional communities in particular. So, yes, I think egalitarianism is really fundamental to the way I understand our national character. But it's something we have to work at every day of the week. That's why, you know, the Prime Minister says, we want to be a country where nobody's held back but nobody is left behind. In terms of the Governor-General's approach, these questions, I listen carefully to her initial contributions. I think she's thought deeply in terms of the way that she has conveyed these ideas about making sure that Australian institutions are accessible for everybody. You don't need pomp and ceremony to convey respect and the importance of our democratic institutions. And I think that is something we are all going to have to work hard on. Members of Parliament, the Governor-General, the fourth estate, everybody, to keep building confidence in Australia's democratic institutions and make sure the government, our democracy, is working for every Australian.
GLOVER: Do you agree with Dave Sharma that really, the ethos is about equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome?
SENATOR AYRES: I don't want to drift down a sort of ideological rabbit hole with Dave. He's sitting here in the studio with me. We've kept it very civil.
SENATOR SHARMA: Let's discuss it later.
SENATOR AYRES: When I walked into the studio, Richard, he was asleep, but I woke him up just in time for the interview because I didn't want him to slip through it.
GLOVER: That's very kindly. I mean, when we talk about hands across the aisle, they're not normally sort of hitting each other to wake up.
SENATOR AYRES: Oh, no, no, no, I'm always trying to be helpful, Richard.
SENATOR SHARMA: I'm very grateful to Tim.
GLOVER: Thank you so much. Tim Ayres is a Labor Senator for NSW, also Assistant Minister for Trade, Manufacturing and the Future Made in Australia. Dai Le is the Independent Member for Fowler, Liverpool/Warwick Farm way, and Dave Sharma is the Liberal Senator for NSW. Tim, Dai, Dave, thank you so much.
SENATOR AYRES: Thanks, Richard.
SENATOR SHARMA: Thank you, Richard.
LE: Thank you.
GLOVER: Another Monday Political Forum here on Drive.
ENDS.
