GREG JENNET, HOST: Okay, time to introduce today's political panel. And joining us here in our Parliament House studio, Assistant Minister for Trade and Future Made in Australia, Tim Ayres. Good to see you again, Tim. And frontbencher Nationals MP and Member for Riverina, Michael McCormack. Welcome to you too, Michael. Now, yes, I was going to lead out with a question about the difficulties ahead for Labor, Tim, with the housing bills in particular. But we have received some breaking news. I'll read you the headline on an official Greens media release that's just landed. “Greens to wave through Labor housing bills”, so more than one by the sounds of it, “comma, continuing to fight for renters to the next election”. So, this represents a back down by them and a win you can probably bank on now.
SENATOR TIM AYRES, ASSISTANT MINSITER FOR A FUTURE MADE IN AUSTRALIA AND TRADE: Well, let's see how this week proceeds. It's a welcome development if we've got support for these bills in the Senate. The Greens political party have taken a pretty extreme position here. Disappointing, of course, that the Coalition have not seen the public interest here and the interests of building more homes for middle-income families. The Greens party position has been extreme on these questions and a range of other questions. It's good to see- like let's see how the votes proceed. I don't bank anything until the legislation has been determined, but I just make the gentle point that it's welcome that it's occurred. Now if it had occurred six months ago, more homes would have been built for nurses and teachers and retail workers in social housing, supporting more people who are struggling to get the equity together to purchase their own home, supporting more people into home ownership. That should have happened six months ago, it should have happened 12 months ago. I guess it's welcome if it happens at the end of the year.
JENNETT: That can was kicked down the road and I think you would understand Tim's reason for caution here.
MICHAEL MCCORMACK MP: The ink isn't even dry on the contract between Labor and the Greens and we knew it was always going to happen. I mean, they're always in a cosy relationship. I mean, this has all been just a bit of fanfare. I mean, the Greens were always going to sign up for this. Max Chandler-Mather, for all his, you know, indignation, I mean, it was only an attempt at a leadership coup. He wasn't successful. And, you know, it's just Greens and Labor doing what Greens and Labor always do, hopping into bed with one another, making their own little cosy arrangements. They'll be taking preferences from each other at the next election. There's nothing to see here, nothing at all.
JENNETT: Let's talk about the merit of it, though, at least with Help to Buy. It's a shared equity scheme for up to 10,000 homes a year. Why is it not the case, Michael McCormick, that any help is good help for first home buyers?
MCCORMACK: Labor's promised 1.2 million homes. I mean, you know, and here they are, they're stopping the timber industry in Victoria. No more gas appliances, you know, and I've got to say, Labour should be leaning more on the states. They should be. And the states should be leaning more on local councils to get those development applications through sooner. And the cost-of-living crisis is very much part and parcel of this. This isn't going to help one single iota. It's just the Greens and Labor once again partnering up in an unholy alliance and the public can see straight through it.
JENNETT: All right, pick up that point.
SENATOR AYRES: It's three quick points then, Greg. I mean, it is sad, actually, that the Coalition can't see through the partisan interest to the national interest and the public interest here. What is being proposed in Help to Buy? 10,000 families, nurses, teachers, retail workers who have been struggling to get the capital together for their first home purchase, will be supported to get their first home purchase and then, when they sell, you know, the Commonwealth will recoup- but it gets them on the housing ladder. What is wrong with that? What's wrong with that proposition? It's a proposition that ordinary people would support. We've had a decade of failed housing policy. Michael's right, actually, that getting housing policy right is about building more homes and getting supply right but it's also about working with the state and territory governments and local government to deliver that change. In the last five years before we took office, the number of meetings with state housing Ministers convened by Abbott or Turnbull or Morrison governments, zero. Zero. No engagement with the states, pointing the fingers at the states, blaming them. Wandering around the country looking for an argument but not actually doing what is required to pull, as Michael says, I agree, local government, all the planning things that need to be fixed, state government, all the commitments that need to be made in terms of opening up areas for housing. This is a government that's getting on with it. 1.2 million house target is a big stretch target. But the Coalition are always about the ‘no’. Whether it's one element of the plan that supports 10,000 people into homes, another element of the plan, 13,000 low-income households, it's always ‘no’. And pointing the finger back at a decade of policy neglect is not a good answer.
JENNETT: Somehow I think we'll hear a lot more about housing in the run up to the next election. Michael, you can open up on Future Made in Australia. So, the Treasurer has introduced a bill today to give tax incentives for the production of hydrogen and the processing of critical minerals. Now right from the get go, right out of the gate on budget night, Angus Taylor and the coalition came out against this. A lot of people might be bemused as to why. Other than ‘billions for billionaires’ what’s wrong with it?
MCCORMACK: Well, we’re not going to support this. Jane Hume said that again today. But I just listened to a very, very good speech by Karen Andrews, the retiring member for McPherson, who talked about the fact that Med-Con in Shepparton, regional manufacturer, producing just two million face masks a year at the start of COVID and, of course, then when we all needed a face mask every second minute of the day and needed to replace it, they, through the Coalition's policies, through making sure that we could get manufacturing being the great sector that it is, we started producing 400 million. That little Shepparton factory, along with others across the nation. And that didn't come with huge subsidies and everything else. I mean, Labor needs to get back to the point of making energy cheaper. They need to get back to the point of making it easier to employ people in regional Australia. When they can do those two things, then they can talk about manufacturing in this country. But until they do that, it's just all waffle.
JENNETT: Alright, well Tim's the Assistant Minister responsible for all of this. Do you see, the Coalition's kind of excluded itself, I guess, pretty emphatically, do you see a way through with the Greens?
SENATOR AYRES: Well, I think that the Parliament should support the legislation, the production tax incentive legislation and the broader framework legislation that was introduced a few months ago. This is good policy for Australia. What it means is that firms who manufacture here in Australia in critical minerals processing, green iron, green steel, the big industries of the future that will reshape the Australian economy, will get effectively lower tax, a tax credit, if they manufacture in Australia. It is a zero risk, zero regret strategy. It is the biggest pro-manufacturing policy framework in our history and everybody who supports Australia and Australian manufacturing should back it. I understand that the previous government is embarrassed about its record: 100,000 less manufacturing jobs, they kicked all of our auto industry offshore, they have been hostile to Australian manufacturing from the get-go. And the message from the Coalition to Australian manufacturing is well, you should pull your socks up. Our message to Australian manufacturing is we will back you to invest in the jobs of the future which will be in regional communities, big new factories employing thousands and thousands of future generations of Australian manufacturers.
JENNETT: Well, Michael cited his Shepparton example to counter that, I guess. Look, let's move on into the communications space. So the government's let us be known, I might might again start with Michael on this just to test your position, online sports gambling. There'll be no legislation in 2024 because it's complex and-
MCCORMACK: And Labor's kicked it into the long grass.
JENNETT: -has taken 18 months.
MCCORMACK: Peter Dutton during his budget-in-reply speech last year talked about the need to curb advertising, particularly in football on a Friday night. And there's too much of it. Look, I think people should be entitled to have a bet and I think, certainly with horse racing, I mean it's synonymous with betting. But this government has really dragged the chain when it comes to proper gambling reform and they really need to pick up their act.
JENNETT: All right, take that on, why is it so complex and why would February or March be a better time for the government to come forward in the shadows of an election? Will it?
SENATOR AYRES: Well, I think, as we've already discussed, this is a pretty punchy and busy week in terms of legislation being scheduled through the Senate. We as a government want to make sure that we get the legislation right and the policy approach right rather than meet an artificial timetable at the end of 2024
JENNETT: Right. But you could get social media ban for teens up and running inside of a week. That's being demonstrated. Why is this so many layers more complex than that?
SENATOR AYRES: That is good legislation. That is good legislation. The government is confident that it should be supported by the Parliament. It puts the onus back on the big social media platforms and deals with an issue that parents around Australia are deeply concerned about, and should be concerned about. It's the right legislation. Let's see whether it proceeds through the Parliament. There are lots of pieces of legislation in front of this Parliament at the moment. We're just saying as a government, we are hitting the pause button to make sure that we get this important piece of legislation right. I don't substantially disagree with anything that Michael says in this area either, I have to say.
JENNETT: You've got concerns for regional broadcasters?
SENATOR AYRES: Yeah, we need an outcome that delivers the right policy objectives and that is going to take time to continue consulting with television networks, with the sports codes, with parents, with advocates for reduction in gambling and reduction in gambling harm. This is going to take time and we're going to take the time to get it right.
JENNETT. So, February. We can expect it in February, can we?
SENATOR AYRES: Well, I'll be here in February and you should ask me then.
JENNETT: I'd be very keen to. Social media, I briefly referenced that in my question to Tim there, Michael. The criticism of it in a snap one-day hearing that the Senate held today by advocates and tech players is that you're all moving too quickly with too much haste.
MCCORMACK: Try telling that to a parent who's lost a child through bullying. Try telling that to one of the friends of that victim. And, look, I appreciate people say the government shouldn't be parenting their kids, but you know, there's so much bullying. When Tim and I went to school, and you, Greg, we'd go home, we'd leave the bullies behind. The kids have it 24/7. They're getting it on their phones, they're getting it via Snapchat, Facebook, you name it, Instagram. And something has to be done. Something has to be done for the sake of those children, for the sake of those kids and for the sake of those families.
SENATOR AYRES: And this takes the pressure off parents and kids and puts the onus on the platforms. That's important. But I agree with Michael. Like, I know that there is a view amongst the sort of, you know, tech billionaires and sort of Libertarian crowd that it should just be a complete free-for-all. Well, we've seen the consequences of a free-for-all for kids. I'm very confident this is the right approach. Our response to this will evolve over time because this is a new area of regulation. We're going to have to get this right but there are kids who are hurting. We’ve got to deal with it. There are challenges in terms of broader social media regulation that we are going to continue to have to grapple with because, you know, there are big challenges and some pretty bad actors out there in this area who are having a pretty malign influence in our democracy and just with little kids who shouldn't be putting up with this.
JENNETT: Yep, to that end, the government has also parked the Mis and Disinformation Bill over the weekend. Look, very briefly, there's scant information on this, but I might get an observation or an opinion from each of you. The idea that five members of the Bali Nine might get to serve out the remainder of their terms in Australian prisons under a high-level deal or discussion that's been held at leader-level recently. Comfortable with that?
SENATOR AYRES: Well, look, you would understand that I'm very reluctant to offer any views on this. The Australian government always advocates on behalf of Australians who find themselves, whether it's through their actions or whatever, in difficulty overseas. I'm going to leave this until the details are clear because there are very important issues to consider here and I think Australians would expect us to act in the interests of Australians.
JENNETT: I do understand the sensitivities, which is why I ventured in cautiously.
MCCORMACK: And what they did had the potential to destroy lives. But have they paid for it? Certainly. Andrew Chan and Sukumaran, they lost their lives. They were executed. Of course, we had the other fellow who died of stomach cancer, and we've already had one released. But the Bari Five they now are, they've done 20 years. I'm not going to be that mean-spirited that I'm not going to say, should they be brought back to Australia, well, let's see what deal has been done. But, you know, 20 years in an Indonesian gaol would be, would be very, very tough. And, you know, I've been personally affected by family members who've lost their lives through drugs and I think it's an insidious thing and I think anybody who tries to import drugs, they know the penalty but gee whiz it would be tough, 20 years in an Indonesian gaol.
JENNETT: Noted. Well, look, thanks for expressing a view, both. Anyway, I do get your position as well on this, Tim. Now, it may be that this is our last conversation as a panel for the year. If so, we'll wrap it up there and thank you for everything you've contributed to.
MCCORMACK: Happy Christmas to both of you.
SENATOR AYRES: Merry Christmas to you and your listeners and to you and your family, Michael.
MCCORMACK: You too, Tim.
ENDS.
